Batting 8th in the National League
by: South Side Rob
Is not for many.
The casual fan just thinks of it as being the last of the hitters. The serious fan understands that batting 8th means much more. Hitting 8th in the National League means the pitcher is waiting on deck to bat next. The opposing pitcher knows this and as such will work around the 8 hitter in hopes that the hitter will get himself out. If not, and a base is open, pitchers are fine with walking the 8 hitter and going after the pitcher. In order to have any offensive success hitting 8th, you have to have a very good idea of the strike zone. We watched J.J. Hardy struggle hitting 8th in his rookie season hitting below 200 for much of the year. Then, Yost moved Hardy up the 2 hole, and J.J. started to hit.
I post this because I see some Brewer fans wanting Rickey Weeks to be slotted into the 8th spot once he returns from the disabled list. There can't be a worse spot for Rickey than 8th. Rickey has yet to understand the major league strike zone and has proved it many times this season as we have watched on many occasions. Rickey taking strikes and swinging at balls out of the zone. Of late, Bill Hall has made a tremendous improvement in that area. I'm still not ready to hit Hall or Weeks 8th.
Here is the list of this year's 8 hitters in the National League. I would hope we would all expect more production from Weeks than what your about to see on this list...
- Cesar Izturis/Cubs - .253 Avg, .310 Obp, 0 Hr's, and 8 Rbi's.
- Yadier Molina/Cardinals - .273 Avg, .336 Obp, 1 Hr, and 12 Rbi's.
- Brad Ausmus/Astros - .255 Avg, .327 Obp, 1 Hr, and 13 Rbi's.
- David Ross/Reds - .179 Avg, .299 Obp, 6 Hr's, and 18 Rbi's.
- Jose Castillo/Pirates - .267 Avg, .309 Obp, 0 Hr's, and 9 Rbi's.
- Tony Graffanino/Brewers - .238 Avg, .299 Obp, 2 Hr's, and 12 Rbi's.
- Ryan Langerhans/Braves - .159 Avg, .337 Obp, 2 Hr's, and 10 Rbi's.
- Carlos Ruiz/Phillies - .265 Avg, .315 Obp, 3 Hr's, and 20 Rbi's.
- Jose Valentin/Mets - .275 Avg, .337 Obp, 2 Hr's, and 13 Rbi's.
- Nook Logan/Nationals - .224 Avg, .263 Obp, 0 Hr's, and 5 Rbi's.
- Aaron Boone/Marlins - .268 Avg, .381 Obp, 5 Hr's, and 24 Rbi's.
- Omar Vizquel/Giants - .229 Avg, .284 Obp, 1 Hr, and 18 Rbi's.
- Chris Snyder/DBacks - .206 Avg, .295 Obp, 4 Hr's, and 12 Rbi's.
- Yorvit Torrealba/Rockies - .243 Avg, .304 Obp, 2 Hr's, and 20 Rbi's.
- Andy LaRoche/Dodgers - .211 Avg, .436 Obp, 0 Hr's, and 3 Rbi's.
- Terrmel Sledge/Padres - .228 Avg, .336 Obp, 6 Hr's, and 14 Rbi's.
Now, looking at that list above tells me that nobody enjoys offensive success batting 8th. Don't comment about Ryan Langerhans now playing for the Nationals. I know that but he has hit 8th for the Braves prior to the trade more than anybody else so I used him for this example.
The list above tells me two things. Young players can't handle hitting 8th. Veteran players have a bit more success hitting 8th. Other than the numbers that are being put up by Aaron Boone, nobody is really getting the kind of production from their 8 hitter. The pitcher waiting on deck has a lot to do with this. Do people still think Weeks should hit 8th?
I wrote this because I believe Rickey needs to probably go back to the lead-off position, or, perhaps hit him 2nd. Drop Braun to 5th and leave Hardy at 3 and Fielder at 4.
You can agree or disagree with me (Dave), but please, give me your thoughts on this...
Rob - Great post. That's some good research on the current #8 hitters, and some interesting insight on why Weeks shouldn't be slotted in the #8 spot.
You said you didn't want to hit Hall 8th, so when Weeks comes back, who do you put there - Estrada or Menchkins? (This assumes that Yost goes with a regular starting 7, plus Mench/Jenkins in left, which seems highly doubtful.)
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I don't understand why Johnny Estrada isn't getting any love. He's got a .285 avg, .305obp, .440slg, 6HR, 21 RBI. I'd hate to see him bat in the #8 spot. I still think he's the best candidate for the #5 spot. Estrada strikes out 1 in 10.89 AB's whereas Weeks strikes out 1 in 4.4 AB's. I don't want someone that strikes out 1 in 4.4 AB's protecting Prince in the lineup. Estrada is more consistant I think than Weeks, Hall, Mench-kins. Match up Estrada's numbers against the ones posted in the previous post and you'll see that if Estrada bats 8th he would be the best 8th in the NL.
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I guess I'd prefer it to be a veteran player rather than one of our young guys.
That only leaves us with Jenkins/Mench, Counsell/Graffanino, and Estrada/Miller.
I believe Mench could handle the spot when Yost plays him.
Jenkins would fall back into his "yank these low-inside pitches out of the park" mode while missing most of them.
Estrada rarely takes a pitch regardless of location. He still makes contact, but on bad pitches, there just bad outs (one or two-hop double-play type ground balls).
I guess I was thinking more about how hitting 8th with Weeks would ruin his offensive production vs. who should bat 8th.
I'll admit, it's a tough call.
Right now, only Mench, Graffanino, Counsell, and Damian Miller can hit 8th. This might explain why Yost has done so much juggling of the lineup. In at least 30 of our games either Counsell or Graffanino have batted 8th (Non-Interleague games).
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who can complain about weeks batting in the 8th spot? Maybe only Weeks. A lineup with him hitting like we think he will from that spot will give the Brewers some serious offense from both ends of the lineup and who knows, it may put a little competitive fire into him.
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I'd like to see Weeks bat 8th for one additional reason. If he reaches base it'd be much easier for a pitcher to bunt him over to 2nd base than if Estrada or Mench was batting 8th...A perfect bunt probably still gets Estrada thrown out at 2nd where it wouldn't need that great of a bunt to get weeks over to 2nd...
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Javier and Michael,
You missed the whole point. Hitting 8th means being pitched around because the pitcher is up next which is why it is very hard even for veteran players to excel offensively while hitting 8th.
If we hit Weeks 8th, we will be wasting his bat and both his average and on-base percentage will fall much lower than where it is now.
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Great post! You can really tell you have a solid team when you are talking about putting your old leadoff man in the 8th spot. And I agree I think the 8th wouldn't be that bad, like Michael said it would be easier to bunt him over with the pitcher and get to the top of the order.
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