4 Pitchers Minimum
by South Side Rob
The Brewers and Ned Yost managed to win a game in Colorado on Sunday. Congrats. 4 pitchers combined to beat the Rockies 3-2. This comes less than 48 hours from one of the toughest losses the Brewers had suffered all season when they blew a 4-1 lead late, only to lose 6-4 on Friday night. In that game, Carlos Villanueva replaced Ben Sheets in the 7th inning and needed just 10 pitches to set the Rockies down in order. In the top of the 8th, the Brewers sent Fielder, Hart, Branyan, and Hardy to the plate which means Villanueva's spot in the order did not come up. When the bottom of the 8th began, Guillermo Mota was on the mound. This is where Brewer Nation blew up for most. Me, I was okay with it. I've witnessed Yost long enough to know he has adopted Mike Scioscia's way of managing a bullpen with a small lead. After the first two batters hit singles to begin the inning, the tying run came to the plate in left-handed hitting Todd Helton. This is where I had the problem. Instead of going to get Mota at this point for left-handed specialist Brian Shouse, Yost stays with Mota who, proceeds to give up a double to deep center field scoring the Rockies 2nd run of the game and now placing the tying run on 2nd base. Garrett Atkins is next and works the count to a favorable 3 and 1 which he then blasts a triple to right-center field. Now, the game is tied, there's a runner on 3rd and Mota has yet to retire a batter. Yost now finally goes and gets Mota for left-handed specialist Brian Shouse to face left-handed hitting Brad Hawpe who was playing his first game after being placed on the disabled list. On the first pitch, Hawpe blasted a home run to right and the game was basically over after 5 runs, 5 hits, and no outs.
When the gift-wrap victory was given to the Rockies, I read on mlb.com, "Mota's been our eighth-inning pitcher for the majority of the year," Yost said. "It was the eighth inning, we went to our eighth-inning pitcher."
All of this leads to my point. Where in baseball does it say that you need a designated 8th inning pitcher? Back in 2002 when the Anaheim Angels beat the San Francisco Giants to win the World Series, I recall that the Angels had one of the most powerful bullpens I have even seen. Mike Scioscia had 4 different pitchers he could use in the 7th and 8th innings which were Ben Weber, Brendan Donnelly, Scot Shields, and a young 20-year old and talented Francisco (K-Rod) Rodriguez. He could also use two different pitchers to close out in the 9th inning using either K-Rod or Troy Percival. One game, the Angels would go Weber in the 7th, Donnelly in the 8th, and Percival in the 9th. The next night, he would go Donnelly in the 7th, Shields in the 8th, and K-Rod or Percival in the 9th. It worked just about every time and on national TV for everybody to see including Ned Yost.
This season, I see a pattern for Yost and he is trying to copy this type of rotation especially as of late using Villaneuva and/or Dillard in the 7th, Mota and/or Shouse in the 8th, and Solomon Torres in the 9th. No offense to our bullpen who has been pitching better than anyone of us thought, these are not the same type of talented pitchers that the Angels had back in 2002.
The Brewers have played 63 games so far this season. On 37 occasions, Yost has used 4 or more pitchers to complete a game. I understand that we have had a good share of extra inning ballgames (10 to be exact) in which its impossible to get by with less than 4 pitchers. In those 37 games, the Brewers are just 17-20. In the other 26 games, the Brewers have used 3 or less going a very nice 16-10.
Could Ben Sheets have gone a 7th inning on Friday? I think so. After 6 innings, he was cruising and had only thrown 100 pitches. In Ben's previous start, he went 8-2/3 and threw 121 pitches so I think he could have at least started the 7th. To be fair, in the top of the 7th when it was Sheets turn to bat, Yost went to the bench to get Dillon to pinch-hit for Sheets as the Brewers had Jason Kendall standing on 3rd base with nobody out after tripling home J.J. Hardy to begin the 7th. As you may recall, Dillon hit a real screamer (Actually, it was a weakly hit grounder) to the pitcher. When the inning was over, Kendall was still standing on 3rd base probably thinking can't anybody hit a sacrifice fly on this team?
Anyway, this is more about Yost handing the ball to 4 pitchers almost every night. Is this really necessary? Stats show that it's not and I have the belief that the more times you hand a different pitcher the ball, the higher the chance that pitcher will be off his game that night. Before you go to your first reliever of the night, there is one thing the manager, the team, and the fans already know. You know what you have so far with your starter. You've watched the starter pitch so many innings before replacing him so you know what you have and if they are on top of their game or not. If your first reliever pitches well, you know what you have because you just witnessed it. When you goto another reliever, you don't know what you have until he actually starts throwing. In Mota's case, it was 4 straight batters reaching and the lead the Brewers have built all night was gone. It's clear, Mota was NOT on his game Friday night.
Do you see my point? We knew what we had in Villaneuva, yet, because Yost has deemed Mota to be his 8th inning guy, he went to him without even thinking about sending Villaneuva out for a 2nd inning which is backwards thinking because we already knew Villaneuva was on his game. Don't you think he deserved to at least begin the 8th inning?
Well, its only one game. To me, its more than that. On Saturday, we lost. Yost knew what he had in starter Dave Bush which was virtually nothing. After the first inning, the Brewers were already losing 5-0. Friday's game could very well have affected Saturday's start. Nobody knows but it could have. Now that's two games which is the same amount the Brewers fell short of the playoffs last season.
Yost loves to talk about his new favorite word which seems to be accountability (I bet he couldn't spell it if you asked him to) but he only talks about that when the Brewers are winning. When their losing, he avoids that type of discussion. Probably because we are all looking to him for answers. Its like looking at the puzzling captain of the Titanic. Very scary.
To make things easy on us fans, maybe we should ask Yost before the game which 3 relievers he plans on using if we are leading after 6 innings. It would save us the suspense. I know our opponents are probably thinking the same way...
The Brewers and Ned Yost managed to win a game in Colorado on Sunday. Congrats. 4 pitchers combined to beat the Rockies 3-2. This comes less than 48 hours from one of the toughest losses the Brewers had suffered all season when they blew a 4-1 lead late, only to lose 6-4 on Friday night. In that game, Carlos Villanueva replaced Ben Sheets in the 7th inning and needed just 10 pitches to set the Rockies down in order. In the top of the 8th, the Brewers sent Fielder, Hart, Branyan, and Hardy to the plate which means Villanueva's spot in the order did not come up. When the bottom of the 8th began, Guillermo Mota was on the mound. This is where Brewer Nation blew up for most. Me, I was okay with it. I've witnessed Yost long enough to know he has adopted Mike Scioscia's way of managing a bullpen with a small lead. After the first two batters hit singles to begin the inning, the tying run came to the plate in left-handed hitting Todd Helton. This is where I had the problem. Instead of going to get Mota at this point for left-handed specialist Brian Shouse, Yost stays with Mota who, proceeds to give up a double to deep center field scoring the Rockies 2nd run of the game and now placing the tying run on 2nd base. Garrett Atkins is next and works the count to a favorable 3 and 1 which he then blasts a triple to right-center field. Now, the game is tied, there's a runner on 3rd and Mota has yet to retire a batter. Yost now finally goes and gets Mota for left-handed specialist Brian Shouse to face left-handed hitting Brad Hawpe who was playing his first game after being placed on the disabled list. On the first pitch, Hawpe blasted a home run to right and the game was basically over after 5 runs, 5 hits, and no outs.
When the gift-wrap victory was given to the Rockies, I read on mlb.com, "Mota's been our eighth-inning pitcher for the majority of the year," Yost said. "It was the eighth inning, we went to our eighth-inning pitcher."
All of this leads to my point. Where in baseball does it say that you need a designated 8th inning pitcher? Back in 2002 when the Anaheim Angels beat the San Francisco Giants to win the World Series, I recall that the Angels had one of the most powerful bullpens I have even seen. Mike Scioscia had 4 different pitchers he could use in the 7th and 8th innings which were Ben Weber, Brendan Donnelly, Scot Shields, and a young 20-year old and talented Francisco (K-Rod) Rodriguez. He could also use two different pitchers to close out in the 9th inning using either K-Rod or Troy Percival. One game, the Angels would go Weber in the 7th, Donnelly in the 8th, and Percival in the 9th. The next night, he would go Donnelly in the 7th, Shields in the 8th, and K-Rod or Percival in the 9th. It worked just about every time and on national TV for everybody to see including Ned Yost.
This season, I see a pattern for Yost and he is trying to copy this type of rotation especially as of late using Villaneuva and/or Dillard in the 7th, Mota and/or Shouse in the 8th, and Solomon Torres in the 9th. No offense to our bullpen who has been pitching better than anyone of us thought, these are not the same type of talented pitchers that the Angels had back in 2002.
The Brewers have played 63 games so far this season. On 37 occasions, Yost has used 4 or more pitchers to complete a game. I understand that we have had a good share of extra inning ballgames (10 to be exact) in which its impossible to get by with less than 4 pitchers. In those 37 games, the Brewers are just 17-20. In the other 26 games, the Brewers have used 3 or less going a very nice 16-10.
Could Ben Sheets have gone a 7th inning on Friday? I think so. After 6 innings, he was cruising and had only thrown 100 pitches. In Ben's previous start, he went 8-2/3 and threw 121 pitches so I think he could have at least started the 7th. To be fair, in the top of the 7th when it was Sheets turn to bat, Yost went to the bench to get Dillon to pinch-hit for Sheets as the Brewers had Jason Kendall standing on 3rd base with nobody out after tripling home J.J. Hardy to begin the 7th. As you may recall, Dillon hit a real screamer (Actually, it was a weakly hit grounder) to the pitcher. When the inning was over, Kendall was still standing on 3rd base probably thinking can't anybody hit a sacrifice fly on this team?
Anyway, this is more about Yost handing the ball to 4 pitchers almost every night. Is this really necessary? Stats show that it's not and I have the belief that the more times you hand a different pitcher the ball, the higher the chance that pitcher will be off his game that night. Before you go to your first reliever of the night, there is one thing the manager, the team, and the fans already know. You know what you have so far with your starter. You've watched the starter pitch so many innings before replacing him so you know what you have and if they are on top of their game or not. If your first reliever pitches well, you know what you have because you just witnessed it. When you goto another reliever, you don't know what you have until he actually starts throwing. In Mota's case, it was 4 straight batters reaching and the lead the Brewers have built all night was gone. It's clear, Mota was NOT on his game Friday night.
Do you see my point? We knew what we had in Villaneuva, yet, because Yost has deemed Mota to be his 8th inning guy, he went to him without even thinking about sending Villaneuva out for a 2nd inning which is backwards thinking because we already knew Villaneuva was on his game. Don't you think he deserved to at least begin the 8th inning?
Well, its only one game. To me, its more than that. On Saturday, we lost. Yost knew what he had in starter Dave Bush which was virtually nothing. After the first inning, the Brewers were already losing 5-0. Friday's game could very well have affected Saturday's start. Nobody knows but it could have. Now that's two games which is the same amount the Brewers fell short of the playoffs last season.
Yost loves to talk about his new favorite word which seems to be accountability (I bet he couldn't spell it if you asked him to) but he only talks about that when the Brewers are winning. When their losing, he avoids that type of discussion. Probably because we are all looking to him for answers. Its like looking at the puzzling captain of the Titanic. Very scary.
To make things easy on us fans, maybe we should ask Yost before the game which 3 relievers he plans on using if we are leading after 6 innings. It would save us the suspense. I know our opponents are probably thinking the same way...
I couldn't disagree with you more on any other of your posts Rygg. The fact of the matter is you don't know what you're going to get out of your guy no matter what he's done before. A bloop hit and the guy loses his mind. Fatigue after a couple pitches and it's over. You're making a lot of assumptions with out any grounds to make them. If he had left Villanueva in for another two batters and he gave up the lead, you'd be saying it's just Yost waiting too long for a pitcher to right himself. Even worse, I thought Mota should have been pulled before he gave up the two runs, like this afternoon, which blows your whole theory out of the water altogether.
You say the more times you hand the ball off to a pitcher, the more chances you're going to a guy with an off night. So you're saying this is a guessing game? I can't buy that.
I didn't agree with the move on Friday either (not hindsight either. I looked right at my dad and said, 'i think they should have kept Villa in.). But you know what? It's not something any one should be upset with. Yost needs to show confidence in all his relievers and so should we. JS was talking about splits the other day which is utterly laughable considering the sample size. Mota has been solid all year, but should have been pulled as soon as Yost saw all of his pitches were flat. That was the mistake, not the move. Yost has to understand when his pitchers aren't on before they get to far gone. Thinking about it, that is perhaps the only reason he is a well below-average manager.
Report any abuse or spam
Oops... I meant Rob. Not Rygg
Report any abuse or spam
Aaron, you disagree and that is of course, your right. I also believe that, sometimes, you have to feel your way through a game. Phil Garner did a lot of the same things with his bullpen that Yost does.
Now, I've been reminded by Doug Russell that maybe the use of 4 pitchers is also because the first 3 were ineffective. That's possible. If my research showed just games were we were leading after 5 or 6 innings, that may have been more telling.
My long-winded article is my way of saying, "You don't need to have a designated 7th or 8th inning pitcher". I didn't like his reasoning for going to Mota and I still don't. There are games when our starter has limited the opposition to 3 or less hits and 5 or less base-runners and Yost will still hand the ball off 3 times! That just doesn't make sense.
Report any abuse or spam